Framing?

[codaroo]

I have a 3 year old Quarter Horse gelding who I've been riding since last fall. He's been very good, and does everything I ask of him, however, many people have been commenting on how he carries his head high. Personally, it doesn't bother me. But sometimes I find him harder to whoa when he carries his head this way.
I've tried the "see-saw" technique a few times. He just gets frustrated and backs up.
I think having his head down would help him to relax a bit as well. I'd prefer not to use side-reins or draw-reins or anything like that on him.

If someone could give me some pointers or tips, it would be very much appreciated. :D

[cursivenight]

Use your leg alot and try to push him forward - that may be enough alone - and half halt gently. Concentrate on relaxing him and you because sometimes a high head can mean the horse is tense. Work on circles to get him bending and round as well. Mostly ride forward into your hand, and soon enough he should lower his head. Also check your saddle because sometimes since their head movement affects everything else he could hurt when he puts his head down. Probably not an issue but its good to check, just in case =)

[Wild Horsefeathers]

Here's a trick I use. Start at a trot, and hold with the reins. If he starts to slow down, use your legs and seat to keep him going forward. Now watch his ears. Once they go down, even a little bit, release immediatly with the reins!!! Then if he raises his head up again, begin holding, releasing as soon as he lowers his head. You can also do this with one rein. Dont worry if it isnt that dramatic at first, he's probably using muscles he doesnt normally use. Eventually you can get it so you start to hold with the reins, and he'll lower his head. Its pretty neat!

How is your horse with giving to the bit?

Remember: A horse with its head lowered, is calm and relaxed. If the head is up in the air, they are tense.

Good luck!! :)

[codaroo]

Thank you!
I've never really asked him to give to the bit. His bridle is set on a lower hole so the bit is lower in his mouth and he holds it up in his mouth on his own, so he has accepted it and works well off of it.
He also holds his head high in the field. It's probably just a Coda thing, but I'd like to teach him to lower his head for shows, pleasure, etc.

Thanks for the help though! :D I'll try that!

[silverleprichuan]

You didn't mind "see-sawing" but don't want to use sidereins? Sidereins are more humane than sawing on a green horses mouth.
He is very young and still very unbalanced so you cannot expect him to be soft, round, and accepting every second of every ride.
Maintain a soft but steady contact, no death hold but no bouncy loose reins. Think of your legs as your fingers and his body as toothpaste. If you want the toothpaste then your legs have to keep a steady contact and squeeze the "toothpaste" out of him. Your hands are the tooth brush and there job is to catch the toothpaste. To catch the toothpaste they have to be steady or you will make a mess and lose the toothpaste down the sink.
In dressage terms, you want to use your legs to push his energy forwards and up into your hands. Your hands provide a steady but constant support and it allows the energy to recycle. As a result your horse will step further underneath himself in a quiet and relaxed manner and overtime he will relax through the back and finally the neck. When his neck relaxes his head will come down.

Wild Horsefeathers idea may give you results but it will result in a tight, tense, and confused horse. Her idea is that you should drive him into a steady contact but once he accepts and relaxes to then drop the contact. This teaches your horse to tuck his nose in and avoid the reins. If you have a horse that is difficult to woah, imagine stopping that horse if they tuck their nose in and you have nothing to stop them with.... very scary.

[DixieGirl]

Or you could try to get him to collect his head at the walk then work up to the trot then eventually the canter. Maybe this would help. :)

[annie55]

Until your horse can be long and low at a slow pace for pleasure, he needs more leg to be able to build up his muscles. You can not try and stuff or "see-saw" a horse into the bridle without using your leg and letting your horse free his back until he becomes more comfortable, able, and willing to travel with his head down at a slower, more collected pace. I suggest pulley reins and a slow twist loose ring snaffle to get your horse to build his topline muscles and become more supple. And no "see-sawing", just a elastic, sponge-like movement with your ands and fingers, gently wiggling the bit as you use your leg. Always use leg and rein together.

[silverleprichuan]

Until your horse can be long and low at a slow pace for pleasure, he needs more leg to be able to build up his muscles. You can not try and stuff or "see-saw" a horse into the bridle without using your leg and letting your horse free his back until he becomes more comfortable, able, and willing to travel with his head down at a slower, more collected pace. I suggest pulley reins and a slow twist loose ring snaffle to get your horse to build his topline muscles and become more supple. And no "see-sawing", just a elastic, sponge-like movement with your ands and fingers, gently wiggling the bit as you use your leg. Always use leg and rein together.



A slow twist snaffle is a harsh bit because the twist cuts into the bars and tongue. If she is trying to encourage contact, the last thing she needs is for her horse to fear contact because the bit hurts.
You are telling her to see-saw, you are making it sound nice but you are telling her to see-saw. There is no reason for your hands to "wiggle" this just makes your horse tuck his head in to avoid the pressure from the bit.

Soft but constant pressure in a smooth snaffle with supporting seat and legs is what this horse needs.

[annie55]

If you just put constant pressure on the horse's mouth all of the time and naver give and take, the horse will never learn what you want from him. You should reward him and release the pressure when he is good instead of using constant pressure. Just holding him in the bridle will make the horse confused about when he is being good. He should learn that when you release the pressure, that means he's doing his job and should teach him to carry himself.

And a slow twist is not harsh whatsoever. Something like a twisted wire is harsh. And in some cases you may need a tougher bit to get your point across. I'm not saying that you should always ride in a severe bit, but using a plain snaffle all the time may teach your horse to hang on the bit because the bit has no "bite" to it.

[annie55]

Your horse's bridle should also be set on a higher hole in is mouth and not lower. My horse once got a sore on the bottom of his mouth because his bit was too low and its was resing on the bottom of his mouth an irritating him. Having his bit too low may be a reason he isn't listening to you.

[silverleprichuan]

If you just put constant pressure on the horse's mouth all of the time and naver give and take, the horse will never learn what you want from him. You should reward him and release the pressure when he is good instead of using constant pressure. Just holding him in the bridle will make the horse confused about when he is being good. He should learn that when you release the pressure, that means he's doing his job and should teach him to carry himself.

And a slow twist is not harsh whatsoever. Something like a twisted wire is harsh. And in some cases you may need a tougher bit to get your point across. I'm not saying that you should always ride in a severe bit, but using a plain snaffle all the time may teach your horse to hang on the bit because the bit has no "bite" to it.


Correct me if I am wrong but do you ride western?

In western they teach the bump and release. A horse is bumped with the reins and when they tuck in their head the pressure goes away. For these horses they want them to completely carry themselves at all times and not touch the reins. So in western riding many people use a bit with a "bite" so the horse learns not to touch the bit.
While this is not incorrect for western it is incorrect for english. We want the horse to touch the bit, we want them to accept and hold the bit. English is based on dressage ideas of establishing connection and maintaining connection. The connection is not a "pull" because hanging on your horses mouth is always incorrect. This contact is like a firm handshake, it's supportive and confident. Over time this contact can be so light your reins could be dental floss and you could still maintain the contact, but no matter what happens that contact is always there.

I'm not saying either method is wrong or that one is better than the other but in the HJ world, judges look for an english based horse not a western based horse.

[Haley]

Do not see-saw your horse's mouth. It only causes a harder mouth and a lot of irritation. You barely want to see any movement of your hands/arms when you work with him - just use your fingers and tense up your arm muscles. Keep your leg on him to keep him moving forward, and use your fingers to keep his head down. When he keeps it down relax, but maintain steady contact. Keep working with him until he can keep his head down a few times around the ring.

[Max]

bend him laterally until he is soft both ways on the ground (stand back next to his flank against his body) then under saddle just stand still and pull the reins to your nees and hold them there (preferably in a round pen or something to contain him from distractions) and hold until he drops him head if you put leg pressure on him he's going to feel trapped,he's a prey animal, and when you take their head away it's scary and then you latch on to them they think they're going to die so it will cause them to fight because they can't run.Doing this method that I used will get her to give to bit a ton more :D

[12234]

Codaroo, Does he carry his head to high or to low? :)

[codaroo]

He carries his head too high.

[12234]

what i do with my horse is i wil work him for a little while and then i will stop him and i pull my reins out to the side and hold them until he drops and gives to the preassure. Then i walk off. You can also do that when you are walking,trotting,or loping :)

[cursivenight]

If his head carrige is a huge problem you *could* get a running or standing martingale. But I wouldn't unless its a big problem.

Use lots and lots of leg as you push him INTO your hand. Like...squeezing toothpaste. But make sure you let him relax after a while, because other wise he'll get stiff. Also collecting makes them go back on their haunches, and sometimes that makes their head come up so...

Just make sure you drive your horse forward with your leg, and sit tall.

[bethfornow]

Haley...... Do you mean to saw that you should not work the corners of your horses mouth to collect them or that you should not use excessive force when doing so???

[mhoney05]

You didn't mind "see-sawing" but don't want to use sidereins? Sidereins are more humane than sawing on a green horses mouth.
He is very young and still very unbalanced so you cannot expect him to be soft, round, and accepting every second of every ride.
Maintain a soft but steady contact, no death hold but no bouncy loose reins. Think of your legs as your fingers and his body as toothpaste. If you want the toothpaste then your legs have to keep a steady contact and squeeze the "toothpaste" out of him. Your hands are the tooth brush and there job is to catch the toothpaste. To catch the toothpaste they have to be steady or you will make a mess and lose the toothpaste down the sink.
In dressage terms, you want to use your legs to push his energy forwards and up into your hands. Your hands provide a steady but constant support and it allows the energy to recycle. As a result your horse will step further underneath himself in a quiet and relaxed manner and overtime he will relax through the back and finally the neck. When his neck relaxes his head will come down.

Wild Horsefeathers idea may give you results but it will result in a tight, tense, and confused horse. Her idea is that you should drive him into a steady contact but once he accepts and relaxes to then drop the contact. This teaches your horse to tuck his nose in and avoid the reins. If you have a horse that is difficult to woah, imagine stopping that horse if they tuck their nose in and you have nothing to stop them with.... very scary.
r u a trainer or something because you always have answers!(not intended to be mean just a question)

[lillbits369]

Silver is correct on the western thing...u wanna stay out of their face.....teach them to carry them selves in the slower and more collected gaits....there are many technigues and ways of obtaining this...best thing to do is get a trainer.

[silverleprichuan]

r u a trainer or something because you always have answers!(not intended to be mean just a question)


Lol, Yes I am a trainer. I currently have 7 horses in training and work closely with the head trainer at our barn. I certainly do not have all the answers and never want to come accross as someone who thinks that they do, but I have had experience with many of the topics on this forum.

[bethfornow]

The main question here (and Silver hit on it) is what do you want your 3 yo to do? Be an english horse or a western horse? There is no reason a horse cant do both but he has to have a good solid foundation in one or the other before he can be tought the diffrence or else he will be confused and frustrated.

For and english headset: Silver is right; steady, confident hands are your cornerstones to build up from. Your goal is for you to be able to communicate with your horse through constant, light contact with your reins. Here is where I dissagree with Silver: there is a big diffrence in SAWing at a horses mouth and using your hands to collect him and to help him to arc his neck. Trading off pressure form one hand to another is actually a technique that originated from dresage (sp) and is used even at the world levels today. If you have a round pen, start there. Tie the reins under your horses front legs to the girth, you want minimal contact. Make him walk, if he stops or tries to back, loosen the reins. Once he is walking watch the movement of the reins. As his legs trade position, so do the reins. In this method there is no constant contact to brace against. This is actually how you teach babies to give to bit pressure even before they are old enough to ride. Once he is comfortable "giving to the bit" at a walk try the trot.

Do this for 2 or 3 weeks then when you ride imitate the movements of the reins when you were lunging him with your hands. when one leg comes up, pull back slightly with the opposite rein, etc. He will give to your hands just like he gave to the pressure in the round pen.

[silverleprichuan]

The main question here (and Silver hit on it) is what do you want your 3 yo to do? Be an english horse or a western horse? There is no reason a horse cant do both but he has to have a good solid foundation in one or the other before he can be tought the diffrence or else he will be confused and frustrated.

For and english headset: Silver is right; steady, confident hands are your cornerstones to build up from. Your goal is for you to be able to communicate with your horse through constant, light contact with your reins. Here is where I dissagree with Silver: there is a big diffrence in SAWing at a horses mouth and using your hands to collect him and to help him to arc his neck. Trading off pressure form one hand to another is actually a technique that originated from dresage (sp) and is used even at the world levels today. If you have a round pen, start there. Tie the reins under your horses front legs to the girth, you want minimal contact. Make him walk, if he stops or tries to back, loosen the reins. Once he is walking watch the movement of the reins. As his legs trade position, so do the reins. In this method there is no constant contact to brace against. This is actually how you teach babies to give to bit pressure even before they are old enough to ride. Once he is comfortable "giving to the bit" at a walk try the trot.

Do this for 2 or 3 weeks then when you ride imitate the movements of the reins when you were lunging him with your hands. when one leg comes up, pull back slightly with the opposite rein, etc. He will give to your hands just like he gave to the pressure in the round pen.



There's a difference between following the mouth and trading pressure. When the horse accepts the bit he will relax and thus his neck will follow his strides. As a result your elbows will soften as the shoulder goes forward to allow the energy to come up and through the back, and as the shoulder come back your elbows go back to neutral to capture the energy and recycle it. During this process the amount or weight of contact never changes it simply shifts forward and then back without becoming heavier or lighter.
If you trade pressure then you give up contact when the shoulder comes forward and try to re-establish contact when the shoulder come back. As a result the energy is lost out the front end and while the neck arches and rounds, there is no energy or true contact. Thus during the process the weight of contact changes which does not give the horse a steady place to balance and accept contact.
It is possible that we are saying the same things but using different wording. If this is the case, I apologize but in my experience "trading pressure" usually involves giving up contact which will encourage a false frame.

[fowlerk]

I would lean farther back in the saddle, that is what I had to do with my retired jumper because se he would race towards the jump.

[TVF Maggie]

Well you could also try using a martingale. Also, you could try giving and releasing, and half-halting. Also, if your horse were to be running away with you especially after jumps, I would probably halt after every jump. And if he dropped his shoulder and tried to motorcyle the corner, I would push him off my leg in the opposite way he tried to cut the corner. Also, you could try practicing transitions. So for example, walk then pick up the trot. Then walk then trot again. Same thing for the canter except the trot to the canter. Hope that works!

[DixieGirl]

Don't fell bad it took me 1 year to get my horse to set up a frame! :rolleyes:

[horse_lover]

okay, wow this is going to be tuff 2 explain... well my horse wouldn't puthis head down either so my riding teacher tought me this turn the key excersise thing, ok, when your riding, make a 20m circle, (stay on the circle) take your inside leg and just turn your hand sideways like you are turning a key, DO NOT JUST PULL WITH THAT HAND, TURN IT!!!! while doing that, push with you outside leg , do all this for about ONE stride( you can do it walking, trotting, cantering) do the in sets of threes and release your reien so, use you hand, leg, for 1 stride, release, again, again, then give him a break and just wlk around, you should probly start this excersise with a walk, after every set of three of doing this loosen your reins to see if he is offering to put is head DOWN in IN on the bit, DOWN so he ca strech his top muscles and relax then once he normally carries his head like that ( after a whil not in the same day or two) then you can work on bringing him in, for me, that was the missing link from up in the air to down on the bit, sry I typed so much, I hope this works! :D